Dragon Age 2

Figured it would be better to start a new topic instead of continue the other one. DA2 is coming out next month, so I figure it would be appropriate to reopen discussion on it. I really haven't been finding out much about it, since I was wanting to wait until getting the game, but I just discovered that Anders(and Justice), and Merrill are party members. I was very surprised to see that.

I think it's safe to say that my initial opinion has changed. Whatever my reservations might still be, Hawke (especially Fem!Hawke) has grown on me. A lot. More than anything, I just want to play. the. game. already. I will seriously be a much happier person a month from now, when I can just get my hands on it and see how I should really feel about it. I'm sure I'll love it, at this point - I only rarely dislike games. [/completely casual/non-picky non-gamer]

The demo is coming out in a couple weeks. That should be able to hold you over until the release.

Meh. I beat DA (+A) once. When I tried to go back and do it again, I just found the entire game to be tedious. The setting didn't catch my attention any more, the party members were all pretty bland (except for Morrigan, because fuck Morrigan), the mechanics were... well, it's a BioWare game, I wasn't expecting anything mechanically. (FYI: Pick a Mage. Learn any high-level offensive skill. Congratulations, you can now proceed to solo the entire game.)

The writing was... passable. But the thing that got to me the most was the fact that everyone in the entire Goddamn setting was being retarded, except for the player character, who was bound by plot. I mean, okay, the Dwarves have the excuse of "not giving half a flying damn about the surface", but for everyone else? Guys, it's a Goddamn Blight. I don't care if one hasn't happened in four hundred Goddamn years, did you miss the part where your King and a majority of your forces were wiped out at Ostagar? Or how Lothering fell to the darkspawn? I seriously have to play politics before you morons get your heads out of your twats to stop the end of the fucking world?

DAO is the game that has made me disillusioned with BioWare. DA2 doesn't sound like it's shaping to be that much better. Mass Effect 3 is my only refuge.

-- Griffinhart

Final Warrior, I bet you're one of those that think that Psychonauts is the best game ever made.

Anyways, DA was great, DA2 I am sure is going to be just as good if not better. Sadly for me I won't be able to play it until late in May since I'll be away in that very special place called Parris Island. But at least that'll be something I'll look forward to once I'm done with recruit training. From what I've seen so far we get a great BioWare story, great BioWare voice acting, great BioWare Bioware game. Its made by BioWare, those guys shit golden nuggets.

No. Best game ever made is a toss-up between Deus Ex, Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, and System Shock 2.

ETA: And Quake.

-- Griffinhart

PS. BioWare made Jade Empire and the Sonic RPG for DS. "Golden nuggets"? Haha, please. I wish, there's a terrifying lack of good developers left in the industry. At least most of what BioWare's done isn't terrible... they're still top on my list of "devs I'd want to work for".

Final Warrior wrote:No. Best game ever made is a toss-up between Deus Ex, Fallout, Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, and System Shock 2.

ETA: And Quake.

-- Griffinhart

PS. BioWare made Jade Empire and the Sonic RPG for DS. "Golden nuggets"? Haha, please. I wish, there's a terrifying lack of good developers left in the industry. At least most of what BioWare's done isn't terrible... they're still top on my list of "devs I'd want to work for".

I'm sure they'll be lucky to have you, in fact they might as well make you lead developer to start, you can tell them how to make proper games based on your decades of experience of working in the industry.

Please. At least I'm going to a game design school. I can at least identify flaws, instead of letting myself be a blinded fanb0i.

Pick a BioWare game. Play a mage, or mage-like class. Congratulations, you've just trivialized their entire combat system with a horribly unbalanced class. DAO? Mage. Fireball fireball inferno fireball. By the time you run out of mana, everything is dead. I can spec a Mage that can solo the High Dragon on Hard. Hell, i can solo the entire game on Hard with a Mage. This is literally impossible with any Melee character, outside of ludicrously high-level 2H hitters (and even that's iffy, it's too dependent on getting close and hitting the dragon with a high-damage swing). ME2? Sentinel. Tech Armor Tech Armor Tech Armor. Activate it, run at your enemies; when your Tech Armor gets busted, it explodes and does AoE damage; by the time it takes enough damage to explode, your skills have already cooled down, so you can re-apply Tech Armor immediately. KoTOR/2? Shit, you don't even need to pick a particular class, just grab Force Storm + Mass Drain. Everything dies.

BioWare is terrible at combat balance. This isn't news. Sure, they do great writing (when they do great writing; again, Jade Empire and DAO). But great writing != good gameplay. The only reason their bad combat balance has never been a major con (from a player perspective) is because 1. it's imbalanced in favor of the player, and 2. all of their games have been more-or-less singleplayer (excluding their Forgotten Realms licensed games [e.g., Neverwinter Nights]), where player-versus-player balance does not exist.

Your blinded adoration and devotion to BioWare does them no more good than my criticisms - in fact, they do harm. If you think BW can do no wrong, you're just blind when they do do wrong. (Once again: Jade Empire and the Sonic RPG.)

I can only think of one company that truly shits pure gold, and that's Blizzard. And that's because their products start off bad and get refined, and refined, and refined, and refined with the passage of time. You personally might not like Blizzard's games, but the facts don't lie: every game they've produced has been a winner. Hell, they scrapped Starcraft: Ghost despite every fanboy wanting it and despite it being in beta (which, by the beta stage, the game is undergoing bugtesting only; beta is a point of no return, you can't go back to the coding board if something is flawed with the design, only if there is a major, critical flaw; by beta, hundreds of thousands of dollars have already been sunk into the game) solely because they thought it wasn't going to be of the same quality as any of the War/Starcraft or Diablo games.

-- Griffinhart

The only class you can't solo DA with on Hardcore would probably be the rogue. Both the 2H and dual-wielding warriors can do it, they just need lots and lots of paultrices. I haven'd solo'd the whole game, but I did solo the high dragon with both melee skill sets, on Nightmare. Yeah, mages are overpowered, but as you noted yourself it does not interfere with enjoyment of the game. ME2, the most fun I had with that game was playing a Vanguard, a viable class even on the highest difficulty setting, with added value of charging a mofo and unloading a shotgun in his face. Just because some classes are overpowered, doesn't mean that the rest are insufficiently powerful. I'm no fanboi, I'm simply too busy enjoying the games to start nitpicking.

Blizzard? Never said they don't make quality games, just not the kind I personally enjoy or play (aside from Dablo 2).

UncleVanya wrote:they just need lots and lots of paultrices.

And therein lies the problem. Mages don't (and when I did my run, I only used something like five or seven Lyrium Potions in total).

I haven'd solo'd the whole game, but I did solo the high dragon with both melee skill sets, on Nightmare.

Minor nitpick: there are three melee skill sets.

Yeah, mages are overpowered, but as you noted yourself it does not interfere with enjoyment of the game.

Except that it does, when the game is easier as one build than another. This comes back to my original point about BW games: they're not balanced.

Just because some classes are overpowered, doesn't mean that the rest are insufficiently powerful.

The only class you can't solo DA with on Hardcore would probably be the rogue

Nice job contradicting yourself, there.

I'm no fanboi, I'm simply too busy enjoying the games to start nitpicking.

And one of the things a good game designer needs to be able to do is pick apart a game and note everything wrong with it.

Blizzard? Never said they don't make quality games, just not the kind I personally enjoy or play (aside from Dablo 2).

I brought Blizzard up to illustrate a developer that does, actually, produced pure gold every time they produce something.

-- Griffinhart

You stated yourself that the imbalance is not a major con (from the player perspective as you said, and thats the guys whom the games are made for) and even given two reasons why. As for the DAO story, really? Really? You didn't understand enough of the plot too see that all parties have valid reasons to not go and help the Warden right away? (which as I understand is the major problem you have with the script) Mages got abominations running around, elves don't have enough warriors due to werewolf attacks (they were supposed to go "yeah, lets go save the human kingdom, while our women and children get massacred by the wolves" in your opinion?) dwarves don't have a king on the throne who'd be able to send the armies off to war, and as for Ferelden, well you got the king is dead and the regent is saying that the blight isn't really a blight, which is shortsightedness on his part, but hell he doesn't trust the Wardens and an Archdemon has not been sighted. Its all very logical, and has backstory to back it up.

As for Blizzard, they have more fanbois than anyone, and I'm starting to suspect that you're one of them. When was the last time they produced a single player RPG? They have a formula, they follow it, it works for them, but with the following they have based on the stuff they did ten years ago they can put goat feces in a box and people will still buy it for a chance to pay a monthly subscription. And its my personal opinion that MOMORPEGERS are equivalent to goat feces.

In the contest of gamer-fu I'm sure you got a lot more ammunition than I do, since this is your future career and all. But I will not agree with you on the point that DAO is a shitty game, DAO was a hell of a good entertainment for what I paid for it.

UncleVanya wrote:You stated yourself that the imbalance is not a major con (from the player perspective as you said, and thats the guys whom the games are made for) and even given two reasons why.

Hey, y'know what else BW is responsible for? SWTOR. You know what that has? Multiplayer. And presumably PVP. Y'know what is critical to PVP? Combat balance.

As for the DAO story, really? Really? You didn't understand enough of the plot too see that all parties have valid reasons to not go and help the Warden right away? (which as I understand is the major problem you have with the script)

I have plenty of other problems with DAO's writing - for one, uninteresting characters. I honestly don't care about any of them. At least I didn't actively hate them, like in Jade Empire.

Mages got abominations running around, elves don't have enough warriors due to werewolf attacks (they were supposed to go "yeah, lets go save the human kingdom, while our women and children get massacred by the wolves" in your opinion?) dwarves don't have a king on the throne who'd be able to send the armies off to war, and as for Ferelden, well you got the king is dead and the regent is saying that the blight isn't really a blight, which is shortsightedness on his part, but hell he doesn't trust the Wardens and an Archdemon has not been sighted. Its all very logical, and has backstory to back it up.

You are mistaking "excuses" for "valid logic". "the blight isn't really a blight"? And this is valid logic... how? Are you saying that, hey, those monsters that herald the impending doom and end of the world - they're not really heralding the impending doom and end of the world, you guys don't need to worry about anything, just make me king? Because that's not logical. That's the epitome of stupid. Loghain should've been strung up by everyone else the moment he attempted to disbelieve the Blight. The Makerdamned Gray Wardens were telling him it was a Blight. Not only are they the only force capable of stopping a Blight (GWs have been present at every archdemon-slaying according to backstory), not only are they the only group with any sort of knowledge about the darkspawn and the Blight, but they are actively fighting against the Blight.

But nah, no, don't listen to them. It's not a Blight. Totally not at all.

(And as I mentioned already, Dwarves don't count - they've dealt with darkspawn every day of their lives and also they straight don't give a fuck about the surface world.)

As for Blizzard, they have more fanbois than anyone, and I'm starting to suspect that you're one of them.

Nice try, but no, I'm not. The last time I played a Blizzard game was in 2009, just before Wrath of the Lich King came out for WoW. Blizzard has been actively terrible at their dramatic writing (their comedy writing is infinitely better and they should try to stick to that), as can be evidenced in SC2's story. The multiplayer is superbly balanced (as it should be), though.

When was the last time they produced a single player RPG? They have a formula, they follow it, it works for them,

>implying that BioWare doesn't follow a formula

Let me show you something:

And its my personal opinion that MOMORPEGERS are equivalent to goat feces.

Go play EVE Online or Guild Wars. Also City of Heroes/Villains.

In the contest of gamer-fu I'm sure you got a lot more ammunition than I do, since this is your future career and all. But I will not agree with you on the point that DAO is a shitty game, DAO was a hell of a good entertainment for what I paid for it.

I didn't say that DAO was a shitty game, but I am saying that DAO isn't the holy grail of singleplayer RPGs and that BW, in fact, isn't the be-all, end-all of SPRPG developers. And it's definitely not good enough to warrant me prepurchasing DA2.

-- Griffinhart

Hey, y'know what else BW is responsible for? SWTOR. You know what that has? Multiplayer. And presumably PVP. Y'know what is critical to PVP? Combat balance.[/color]

And we'll see how that turns out for them, the game isn't out yet, how is that relevant?

You are mistaking "excuses" for "valid logic". "the blight isn't really a blight"? And this is valid logic... how? Are you saying that, hey, those monsters that herald the impending doom and end of the world - they're not really heralding the impending doom and end of the world, you guys don't need to worry about anything, just make me king? Because that's not logical.

That is logical, until there is an Archdemon present its not a Blight, and it doesn't have to be a Blight for groups of darkspawn emerging top side. Meanwhile Loghain, also has other motivations for grabbing power. He sees that the king is a child that believes too much in fairy tales, and whats worse is negotiating with Orlais, the same guys that Loghain fought against to free Ferelden. Believing that Cailan was not strong enough to lead Ferelden through this crisis, Loghain chose to grab the power for himself believing that he would be able to deal with the country's problems much more effectively. Its all very logical.

That's the epitome of stupid. Loghain should've been strung up by everyone else the moment he attempted to disbelieve the Blight. The Makerdamned Gray Wardens were telling him it was a Blight. Not only are they the only force capable of stopping a Blight (GWs have been present at every archdemon-slaying according to backstory), not only are they the only group with any sort of knowledge about the darkspawn and the Blight, but they are actively fighting against the Blight.

Its been 400 years, long enough time to start doubting legends, and once again the Archdemon was not present at Ostagar. Loghain was ambitious and narrow minded, that's not stupid, there are people like that.

I didn't say that DAO was a shitty game, but I am saying that DAO isn't the holy grail of singleplayer RPGs and that BW, in fact, isn't the be-all, end-all of SPRPG developers. And it's definitely not good enough to warrant me prepurchasing DA2.

-- Griffinhart

So who, right now makes better RPGs than BW? Cause if there is such a company they must not have a marketing department and their games are sold via a hole in the fence.

UncleVanya wrote:And we'll see how that turns out for them, the game isn't out yet, how is that relevant?

Didn't I just say that combat balance is critical to MMO gameplay, and that BioWare has a track record of being terrible at combat balance?

That is logical, until there is an Archdemon present its not a Blight,

I see you're blatantly ignoring the bit where the Gray Wardens all have dreams of the current archdemon, then.

and it doesn't have to be a Blight for groups of darkspawn emerging top side.

If the showing at Ostagar is your definition of a "group", I'd hate to be around when your definition of an "army" shows up.

Meanwhile Loghain, also has other motivations for grabbing power.

Because attempting a power grab in the middle of the impending end of the world is a brilliant, logical thing to do, yes?

He sees that the king is a child that believes too much in fairy tales,

I didn't say the King was any less stupid than anyone else in the setting.

and whats worse is negotiating with Orlais, the same guys that Loghain fought against to free Ferelden.

Racism, because that's logical!

Believing that Cailan was not strong enough to lead Ferelden through this crisis, Loghain chose to grab the power for himself believing that he would be able to deal with the country's problems much more effectively.

And was he? Oh wait, no.

Its all very logical.

nope.avi

Loghain was ambitious and narrow minded, that's not stupid, there are people like that.

...

...

What.

Ambitious and narrow-minded is not stupid?

There being other people like that is not stupid?

Do you know how stupid the average person is? By definition, half of them are even more stupid than that.

So who, right now makes better RPGs than BW? Cause if there is such a company they must not have a marketing department and their games are sold via a hole in the fence.

ATLUS. Persona 3 and 4 having wonderfully relate-able characters (P4 moreso than P3 IMO, but that's a different discussion), and P4 pulls off the supernatural high shcool murder mystery plot extraordinarily well; Demon Souls is a punishing Japanese approach to dungeon-crawling; similarly so, the Etrian Odyssey series. Probably my only complaint with most of ATLUS's fare is that shit is hard. (P4 less so than the others, if you know what you're doing and you're prepared ahead of time.)

-- Griffinhart

Didn't I just say that combat balance is critical to MMO gameplay, and that BioWare has a track record of being terrible at combat balance?

They also have never made an MMO before TOR, and TOR isn't out yet, so it'd be wise to reserve judgment until you can play the game.

I see you're blatantly ignoring the bit where the Gray Wardens all have dreams of the current archdemon, then.

And you're ignoring the fact that this story is complex, and Gray Wardens are not in Command of Ferelden's armies. Loghain was not convinced, simple as that.

If the showing at Ostagar is your definition of a "group", I'd hate to be around when your definition of an "army" shows up.

Again, no archdemon.

Because attempting a power grab in the middle of the impending end of the world is a brilliant, logical thing to do, yes?

I can tell you of several examples in history there something similar has happened. And again, at the start Loghain did not have sufficient reason to believe that it was a true blight, more so, he did not believe Cailan capable of leading Ferelden against the darkspawn or any other threat and he saw himself as the only option for the preservation of the country.

Racism, because that's logical!

They just gained their independence from Orlais, Loghain's mistrust is completely logical.

And was he? Oh wait, no.

No, he wasn't, but why does that matter? His motivations are all logical and fall in line with his circumstances and his character.

Ambitious and narrow-minded is not stupid?

No, ambitious and narrow-minded is not stupid, if your understanding of a clever story is the one there the bad guys are evil because they're evil, and good guys are good because they're good with no other explanation given, well, that's your personal problem. BW created characters, with character flaws, just like any person has character flaws, and motivations based on their character. Its better than having a bunch of one-dimensional archetypes running around.

So who, right now makes better RPGs than BW? Cause if there is such a company they must not have a marketing department and their games are sold via a hole in the fence.

ATLUS. Persona 3 and 4 having wonderfully relate-able characters (P4 moreso than P3 IMO, but that's a different discussion), and P4 pulls off the supernatural high shcool murder mystery plot extraordinarily well; Demon Souls is a punishing Japanese approach to dungeon-crawling; similarly so, the Etrian Odyssey series. Probably my only complaint with most of ATLUS's fare is that shit is hard. (P4 less so than the others, if you know what you're doing and you're prepared ahead of time.)

JRPGs? Thats your answer? Now you're being funny.

The DA story is great, the problem lies in how you categorize plots in your mind. Complexity, character flaws, etc., etc., they add to the story, not subtract from it.

UncleVanya wrote:They also have never made an MMO before TOR

If anything, that's more reason to be wary.

And you're ignoring the fact that this story is complex, and Gray Wardens are not in Command of Ferelden's armies. Loghain was not convinced, simple as that.

Ah, and this is logical... how?

Logic: The Gray Wardens say it's a Blight. Every time there has been a Blight, the Gray Wardens have been there. The Gray Wardens have always been right about the Blight.

Loghain: NOPE.

I don't see how this is logical. At all.

Again, no archdemon.

So the only time we should ever be worried about the darkspawn is when there's an archdemon around. Alright, gotcha. Don't worry about all the people we lost at Ostagar, that wasn't any big deal.

I can tell you of several examples in history there something similar has happened.

That doesn't make it smart or logical.

They just gained their independence from Orlais, Loghain's mistrust is completely logical.

And again, stupid - and also, irrelevant. How much of an effect did Orlais have on the whole ordeal? Oh, right, none. It was all Ferelden fighting off the Blight (plus the Dwarves under Ferelden, which kind of still counts).

No, he wasn't, but why does that matter? His motivations are all logical and fall in line with his circumstances and his character.

No, ambitious and narrow-minded is not stupid, if your understanding of a clever story is the one there the bad guys are evil because they're evil, and good guys are good because they're good with no other explanation given, well, that's your personal problem. BW created characters, with character flaws, just like any person has character flaws, and motivations based on their character. Its better than having a bunch of one-dimensional archetypes running around.

So what you're saying is that a story that springs up from a character being stupid and racist and power-hungry is a perfect and amazing story.

Mass Effect has a great story, plus great characters that are flawed but they overcome their flaws (with the exception of Jacob, who was pretty much Mr. Stable [and Boring], and The Illusive Man, who gets rolled by Shepard anyhow). Mass Effect is BioWare when they do shit right. Shepard is faced with overwhelming adversity and a disjointed (galactic) society of diverse beings and overcomes that anyhow by virtue of sheer hard/badassedness (moreso in ME2 than in 1). The Warden-Commander of DAO? Nope, not even close. Hell, guy/gal never even gets to bust out his combat abilities in dialogue. (Actually, to mention it, neither does a biotic Shepard.)

JRPGs? Thats your answer? Now you're being funny.

ANd you're being biased and narrow-minded, like Loghain. Don't knock 'em 'til you've played them.

The DA story is great, the problem lies in how you categorize plots in your mind. Complexity, character flaws, etc., etc., they add to the story, not subtract from it.

Absolutely true. BW's Mass Effect, Black Isle's Baldur's Gate 2/Planescape: Torment, ATLUS's Persona 3/4, all have plot complexity and flawed characters; however, their plot complexities are scaled to the game's setting (both great and small; ME is galactic-scale, Persona 4 is about a quiet little town); DA fails at this because the setting is about Thedas but the plot complexity is bound to Ferelden and the gameplay complexity is about pissant politics I could not give less of a shit about. Similarly so for the characters: they are flawed, but they overcome their flaws (or fall to them, in case of ME2's possible loyalty failures) - they are not defined by their flaws, but by who they are after overcoming those flaws. DAO? Nope. Alistair is still the annoying comic relief; Morrigan is still a bitch; Zevran is still horny; Sten is still quiet; the French chick (see? I can't even remember their fucking names) is still French; etc., etc.

DAO is, at best, a mediocre story, especially considering BW's previous efforts.

-- Griffinhart

Final Warrior wrote:
If anything, that's more reason to be wary.

Perhaps, but do you expect them to apply the same formula to their MMO as to their Single player RPGs?

Ah, and this is logical... how?

Logic: The Gray Wardens say it's a Blight. Every time there has been a Blight, the Gray Wardens have been there. The Gray Wardens have always been right about the Blight.

Loghain: NOPE.

I don't see how this is logical. At all.

The Gray Wardens have only recently been let back into Ferelden, because they tried to stage a coup d'etat in the past (atleast as far as Loghain knows). There hasn't been a Blight for 400 years, so the entire reputation of the Grey Wardens is based on nothing more than legends and folk tales at this point. In addition the Grey Wardens also kept the fact that the taint is needed to slay the Archdemon a secret, based on what he knew Loghain thought that he could best any foe by strength of his army alone, as he has done in the past against Orlais. He is ambitious, he is arrogant, but his motivations are completely logical.

That doesn't make it smart or logical.

But it does, and it also makes it realistic, and complex.

And again, stupid - and also, irrelevant. How much of an effect did Orlais have on the whole ordeal? Oh, right, none. It was all Ferelden fighting off the Blight (plus the Dwarves under Ferelden, which kind of still counts).

Cailan wanted to invite an Orlesian army to Ferelden, of course that raised a concern for Loghain who was one of the original rebels against Orlesian occupation. This is gave another reason to Loghain to attempt to usurp power from Cailan.

So what you're saying is that a story that springs up from a character being stupid and racist and power-hungry is a perfect and amazing story.

He isn't stupid, but he isn't perfect, he has motivations based on his circumstances, he isn't perfect, no one in the DA universe is, and that makes it a good setting and a good story. Flaws add complexity.

Mass Effect has a great story, plus great characters that are flawed but they overcome their flaws (with the exception of Jacob, who was pretty much Mr. Stable [and Boring], and The Illusive Man, who gets rolled by Shepard anyhow). Mass Effect is BioWare when they do shit right. Shepard is faced with overwhelming adversity and a disjointed (galactic) society of diverse beings and overcomes that anyhow by virtue of sheer hard/badassedness (moreso in ME2 than in 1). The Warden-Commander of DAO? Nope, not even close. Hell, guy/gal never even gets to bust out his combat abilities in dialogue. (Actually, to mention it, neither does a biotic Shepard.)

People don't always overcome their flaws, expecting them to is oversimplifying things.

Absolutely true. BW's Mass Effect, Black Isle's Baldur's Gate 2/Planescape: Torment, ATLUS's Persona 3/4, all have plot complexity and flawed characters; however, their plot complexities are scaled to the game's setting (both great and small; ME is galactic-scale, Persona 4 is about a quiet little town); DA fails at this because the setting is about Thedas but the plot complexity is bound to Ferelden and the gameplay complexity is about pissant politics I could not give less of a shit about. Similarly so for the characters: they are flawed, but they overcome their flaws (or fall to them, in case of ME2's possible loyalty failures) - they are not defined by their flaws, but by who they are after overcoming those flaws. DAO? Nope. Alistair is still the annoying comic relief; Morrigan is still a bitch; Zevran is still horny; Sten is still quiet; the French chick (see? I can't even remember their fucking names) is still French; etc., etc.

DAO is, at best, a mediocre story, especially considering BW's previous efforts.

-- Griffinhart

Doesn't seem like we're going to agree, your idea of a great story is a bit too simplistic, and anything that takes making a few more complex connections to digest you label as stupid. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

UncleVanya wrote:Doesn't seem like we're going to agree, your idea of a great story is a bit too simplistic, and anything that takes making a few more complex connections to digest you label as stupid. Let's agree to disagree and move on.

You seem to continue to be mistaking "complex" with "stupid" and "logical" with "half-assed excuses".

You want a complex story that's good? Go read Iain M. Banks' Excession (Use of Weapons is also good, though I don't recommend it to anyone who hasn't already read a couple books in the Culture setting). Go read Mark Z. Danielewski's House of Leaves. Hell, go read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card. Those have flawed characters and complex plots that aren't shit and a half or filled with excuses for the main character to run around doing nothing.

DAO isn't good, and like I said before, it's not just because of the story. Boring characters that never change over the course of the plot (a story filled with static, but flawed, characters is complex, apparently?), a contrived situation that allows for the player to be forced into tedious errand-running (I don't care how Goddamn "logical" you think Loghain's actions were; when you have an alien army invading your country, the first fucking thing you should be doing is putting down the invasion regardless of whether or not the alien's leader has appeared; in fact, Loghain should've known this from having been, y'know, under the heel of the Orlesians recently); and unbalanced combat mechanics that rapidly become easily broken and mastered (i.e., they lack complexity).

-- Griffinhart

PS. Also, I hope you realized that you just called Mass Effect, Planescape: Torment, and Baldur's Gate 2 simple in plot complexity. Perhaps, before you go around praising something as great, you should go and learn what exactly is great.

Final Warrior wrote:You seem to continue to be mistaking "complex" with "stupid" and "logical" with "half-assed excuses".

Rather you seem to have a simplistic view of the story, ignoring its complexity and calling every solid logical connection "stupid" and "half-assed excuses".

DAO isn't good, and like I said before, it's not just because of the story. Boring characters that never change over the course of the plot (a story filled with static, but flawed, characters is complex, apparently?), a contrived situation that allows for the player to be forced into tedious errand-running (I don't care how Goddamn "logical" you think Loghain's actions were; when you have an alien army invading your country, the first fucking thing you should be doing is putting down the invasion regardless of whether or not the alien's leader has appeared; in fact, Loghain should've known this from having been, y'know, under the heel of the Orlesians recently); and unbalanced combat mechanics that rapidly become easily broken and mastered (i.e., they lack complexity).

I disagree on the story, for obvious reasons, since your logic doesn't really hold any water than weighed on any realistic scale. Rulers don't drop everything than faced with a threat they haven't properly assessed, neither do they all the sudden forge alliances with forces that have laid claims on the sovereignty of their state in the past. DAO is a great game, in that the story is good and it provides a lot of entertainment value.

Perhaps, before you go around praising something as great, you should go and learn what exactly is great.

Perhaps you should do the same, playing JRPGs is going in the opposite direction.

Maybe I'm loosing some of the irony here because of the different languages and for that I apologize in advance, but being an Admin I have to say: Guys, keep this civilized, please. I'd hate to delete or block the thread if you keep with that harsh tone (writing). Arguing and exchanging opinions is cool, but don't go too far

UncleVanya wrote:Perhaps you should do the same, playing JRPGs is going in the opposite direction.

Oh wow, really? So you're just going to focus on that, and ignore the names I dropped before?

Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, Fallout: Western CRPG (Isometric). Developed by Black Isle Studios.

System Shock 2: Western CRPG (First-Person Shooter). Developed by Looking Glass Studios.

Deus Ex: Western CRPG (First-Person Shooter). Developed by Ion Storm.

Mass Effect: Western Console RPG (Third-Person Shooter). Developed by BioWare.

You seem to be generalizing JPRGs as to being all the same (most likely in the vein of Final Fantasy which is, as acclaimed as the franchise is, shit-poor post-10). They're not, much like how the above list of Western CRPGs are dissimilar from one another.

All the games I've talked about (save Starcraft 2), I have played in some manner or fashion for some period of time greater than five hours. So I'm confident in saying that I know what makes a game mediocre, if not good. You, however, seem content to defend DAO (for some fanatical reason choosing to defend solely Loghain's actions as "logical") without actually bringing up any sort of counter-examples as to what constitutes actually bad gameplay/story. (Consider my core argument: "DAO is mediocre. Here are games that are better than DAO, and why they are better." Consider your argument: "DAO is good. Here are in-universe reasons behind why the characters make DAO good." Do you see the logical disconnect, or do I have to get Bayesian all up in this shit?)

@Calliara: I bear UncleVanya no ill-will; as far as I'm concerned, this is a mildly heated debate. I disassociate the person from the argument. (Dragonis knows this pretty well; ask him about the time we talked about SWTOR and the Star Wars setting in general.)

Honestly, this is better than talking to someone who agrees with my positions (such as one of my roommates); here I get to exercise my debate, as opposed to having it concurred with.

-- Griffinhart

I am sorry, I was just a bit worried about things going too far. As long as you two are not getting really mad at each other you can continue, I don't mind.

Naw, I got no problems with Final Warrior, we go waaaaaaaaaay back. This is all just a rather mild exercise in nerd rage between us. More so its over, I don't really have anything more to add, aside from rephrasing myself again. The topic we're discussing is very subjective, and opinion depends in large part on personal preference.

We go as far back as at least BattleForums (not that I want to remember those days... urgh. /oldshames).

But yeah, I think this debate is pretty much wrapped up (at least between myself and UncleVanya; any other challengers?). I'll go back to lurking until someone posts something relevant to Griffinhart~

/me watches post count growth rate as it dwindles back to nothing, as it should be.

-- Griffinhart

The demo for Dragon Age 2 is out. It's 1.9 gbs, but since they are trying to get to a million downloads before the first, the download is bound to be slow.

EDIT: Just played and finished the demo. I like the new interface and how much better battles flow. Also, just to note, there is no customization beyond class in the demo.